Clothing saying something

[jenett]

So, I made an access-locked post on Friday about thoughts on clothing choices at a professional hiring conference (which is where I was.) And various comments made me realise it might in fact be helpful to pull out pieces of my own theory in case they are of use to others.

I'll be referencing the men's clothing variants here, but mostly focusing on women's clothing, because that's the bit I know best. (I also don't have all the answers: this is a "Here's the stuff I think about, and my personal answers. Yours can and should vary." thing.)

Basic maxim: wear stuff such that the focus is on you, how awesome you are, and why they want you to come work for them, rather than making them wonder if you can't read instructions/pick up cultural cues/want to flash shiny things rather than provide substance.



Background
I am, in the most particular instance, writing regarding a particular environment: academia and education in general, and in particular the independent school setting, but a lot of what I'm going to say has more generally applicable bits. Use the bits that help, and ignore the bits that don't.

Me, I'm the daughter of a theatre professor, and he and my mother owned a summer stock theatre for a number of years. (Mom doing the costuming). Theatre uses clothing as a way to quickly convey important information about a character, so I grew up with the idea of clothing-as-statement, internalised long before I knew better. I'm the kid who learned the principles of make up application by being on stage, and had to backwards engineer it for non-stage lighting as a teenager. (These days, I don't wear much, and that only for things like interviews. Except for the blue toenail polish.)

The last notable point is that I am not a small woman: I have broad shoulders inherited from my father (who was required to play rugby in school because he was built for it), and my mother's height, and a family history on both sides of European peasants who were good at surviving famines. Finding a fitted suit coat that fits both my shoulders and chest is an exercise in annoyance. Finding pants the right length (and that fit both my waist and hips) is about as bad. I'm about a size 20-22 US, depending on cut and material, and this reduces some of my realistic options in annoying ways sometimes.

My background is New England public school, longstanding New England prep school, Seven Sisters college (all inclined towards relatively simple clothing choices, but with a lot of attention to specific details), and then the last 12 years in the Midwest, but mostly in educational settings where those habits work well.I'm not as good at options in other parts of the country, but the basics here (because of the way that the Northeast tends to influence other parts of the US) tend to be seen as appropriate and reasonable choices, if not the most exciting you can get away with.

My day-by-day clothing these days is almost always a calf-length cotton skirt (Deva Lifewear) in a neutral color (black is good), a cotton shirt (long or short sleeve, depending) in a jewel-tone or heathered color and maybe a cotton knit cardigan over, or something of the kind. And comfy shoes - at the moment, I'm very fond of Keens for the combo of 'comfy' and 'sufficiently professional looking'.

What do you want to say with your clothes?
(both in general, and in this particular setting)

If you are going to a meeting with someone, and you would like them to hire you for a job, you probably want your clothing to say at least some of the following:
- "I am taking this interview seriously."
- "I am a competent professional."
- "I planned ahead so I'd be prepared for today."
- "I am someone who would be a thoughtful employee."
- "I am aware of community cultures and customs."

You might also want to say things like:
- "I'd be great working with your students."
- "I will look like the adult in that interaction, and behave like it."
- "I am flexible in how I approach things: I go for the reason behind something, not just the outward appearance."
- "I am active and energetic."

Men's clothing has a fairly simple version of this: blazer or jacket, shirt, tie, khaki pants, leather shoes (loafers to dress shoes, depending) If you want to mark yourself as particularly with it or stylish, you do things with the color of shirt, jacket, and tie. (Brighter colors = more daring and energetic, generally, but only if you get the mix right.) Bow ties work some places (I saw a lot this past weekend), but not so much in others.

For women's clothing, it's trickier. Crisp blazer, button down shirt, and highly pressed and tailored skirt/slacks can work great in some settings, but can come across as too much business-culture (rather than education-culture) in others. A plain colored sweater in a good fiber choice and a skirt or crisp-looking slacks can work well - or if you get the material and cut wrong, can look too informal ("I'm running to the grocery store" rather than "I'm at an interview.") And being careless with details can undermine the whole effect fairly quickly.

There are lots of other options. In this case, I chose clothing to say:
- I am a capable, competent librarian...
- secure in her librarianess....
- who does not at this point want to be an administrator....
- and who dresses to be able to be comfortable and effective in a wide range of tasks...
- while understanding how to fit in with a community's culture and customs.

This is actually a fair bit for clothing to express, but fortunately it's a relatively common combination, if you adjust for the actual field. I now have enough silver hair I don't worry too much about looking like the adult in the room. Instead, I want to push the "I will be engaged and actively excited about doing new stuff." buttons. More on this in a moment.

The 'secure in her librarianess' means that sartorial choices that are classic librarian (comfortable but thoughtful clothing, sensible shoes) are not a problem for me. (Many librarians may want to make different choices. My preferences happen to hit the stereotype pretty tidily.) And the "I do not want to be an administrator" means that I actually want to steer away from a formal suit type thing anyway. The dress gives me more fluidity and flexibility of movement than a suit, too - and it's a subtle way to indicate "Hi, I plan to be up and moving around a lot, and my clothing doesn't limit me from getting down on the floor to unplug a piece of technology if I need to, or shelve a book on the bottom shelf."

As a final note, what are you going to be doing? A great interview outfit for a seated conversation in a conference room might not be the best choice if you're being asked to teach a sample lesson. Or if you're going to be given a walking tour of the school.

You also want to adjust for location: cultural mores about clothing are different in New England than in New York City than in the Midwest than in California, even when you're talking about the same basic kind of job. In general, following the ideas here won't get you in trouble, but the more daring color/cut/etc. get a little less daring in more relaxed settings.

If you're not sure, can you do some research? With schools, it's easy: most of them have photos of faculty, staff, and kids you can look at to get an idea about a regular teaching day. Many companies might have the same thing.

What things might not do that?
Given your desired clothing statement, it's worth thinking about things that might affect that message - in other words, the failure modes.

Way too formal
Shows a mismatch in tone - wearing a full formal suit to this past event, for example, would give that impression, because you want to be sending off the "Active teacher, not afraid to get my hands dirty" sort of vibe.

Way too informal
Same mismatch in tone, with an added side of "I don't really care about this interview/am not taking it seriously"

Poorly tended/repaired
Same as above, mostly. ("I didn't think about my interview clothing until too late to fix this problem.") Or that a dire clothing accident happened on the way there.

Poorly pulled together
By which I mean stuff that just doesn't work together - mostly, this looks like you either can't read cultural cues from known material (conference information, information about the places hiring, etc.) or that you don't care, or that you don't plan ahead well. None of these are great statements for hiring purposes.

Things may look poorly pulled together if the colors don't work well (especially if you're mixing shades of color that are close to each other in one way - tone, intensity, but not in another - saturation, for example) or if you're wearing an untucked blouse and a blazer whose bottom hem conflict with each other.

Clothing that otherwise does not send the message you want
What the label says. Asking a friend who's at least somewhat familiar with your field can help. Digital photos can help too.

So....
I find it handy to figure out what the failure modes for me would be. I'm not inclined to go too formal for other reasons (I hate finding fitted jackets, and abhor tight skirts), but I do want to play up the "I am actively engaged with the world" bit, rather than "larger woman who might be assumed to be less active/energetic" by people who do not know better about size issues.

Particular limitations
Some people have other specific limits on clothes. These might include:

Materials: You might be allergic to some, or have preferences about avoiding it.

Health needs: that mean you need extra attention to staying warm enough/cool enough/avoiding hot flashes enough/whatever.

Religious restrictions that affect cut, style, length, and other details.

Other things like whether something can be machine washed, or needs to be dry cleaned, or whatever.

Realities of the clothing market: My chances of finding a fitted jacket in a size, color, and cut that is at all appropriate are very very very tiny. (I have one fitted jacket that fits: it is a dark green velvet. It does actually work as a potential interview outfit for me, but it needs a very classic white or cream shirt and dark skirt combination to do so. And the skirt's got to be precisely the right length.)

I am probably better off if I look at other alternatives that are a bit more flexible than the classic suit option. You, dear reader, may have totally different realities to contend with, but I bet you know what they are.

What will work for you: and make you feel like the best possible version of yourself. Highly personal, and I'll come back to this, but it's good to keep in mind.

In my case: I do need to dress for a sometimes variable temperature setting (given that this hotel is heated to 'men in business suits' standards, as most are) and that my internal thermostat, while it's working a lot better this year, still has periodic fits. I have a strong preference normally for natural fibers that can be machine washed with no fussing, but I am happy to adapt that for interview and other special occasion clothes. (And in fact, both dresses are dry clean only)

Things to consider:
So, now that we've sorted out what we want the clothing to do, and not do, and any other things that are important, we have some choices.

The most basic is that you want something you feel comfortable wearing, so that you will move and react and think naturally and easily, rather than be constantly fretting about your clothing.

Type of clothing:
I am not of a shape that makes buying fitted jackets useful. Nor do I like short business-style skirts. These are perfectly reasonable options for other people, but not for me. Right then, let's look at other options.

It might mean slacks and a well-tailored top - except that I hate slacks, and have a hard time finding ones that fit. (I could do the more palazzo-end of the spectrum with a tunic-length loose jacket: some women of my shape and approach make that work really well, but that's not really my personal style.) Also, I have a chest of a size and shape that makes button down shirts almost as problematic as fitted jackets. (Gaping or pulling of buttons is the kind of small detail that people will notice, and that does not make you look put together.)

So, that mostly means a dress. My current interview dresses are both from Jones of New York (a nice classic designer). The thing I like about dresses is that they're easy to adapt to different settings depending on level of formality. Both interviews, I threw a lightweight draping cardigan (thank you, Land's End) over them, for temparature comfort but an appropriate look. The right jewelry choice can make them memorable, and anne's expression when I showed her the blue shawl over the current dress was amusing. (In the best way. She went "Wow!")

Things that are probably too informal for the interviews I'm likely to do - both at this past event and elsewhere - would be something a little more casual: sweater and slacks, for example. I do think that skirts, on average, kick formality up a notch: a skirt and sweater sometimes will hit exactly the right note where the same sweater with slacks wouldn't. And a full-out black or navy business suit (whether skirt or slacks) would almost certainly be too formal for my likely interviews and desired job.

If you're really in doubt, dressing at a formality level that would suit your boss's job or your boss's boss's job can work. (For example, many independent school heads of school wear blazer + good slacks + shirt and tie, if they're male, or thoughtfully cut but comfortable dresses/pants outfits if they're female. Very few wear formal dark color business suits. So an interviewee wearing one would be inappropriate.) On the other hand, while teachers in a casual teaching environment might well wear jeans and a cotton knit shirt, that's almost always too informal for an interview - and it's definitely not what the administrators wear most of the time.

Of course, there may be other choices - if I were being flown out for an interview, I wouldn't travel in my interview dress. I would, however, fly in something close to the upper end of my daily work attire (skirt hemmed to a good length, plain cotton knit top, cotton cardigan or shawl, jewelry, decent walking shoes).

Color
Color is a complicated thing, but I tend to stick to the goal of a basic neutral (one of my dresses is black with white designs, the other is plain dark gray: shades of brown, beige, or navy blue can also work), with a burst of color from something (jewelry, cardigan or shawl, etc.). I usually go for a dark jewel tone, but there's plenty of other options. Red has a real 'get up and go' energy to it, blue is soothing and intellectual, purple is rich and vibrant, and so on.

I tend to prefer that the dress be the neutral, and the other stuff (accessories, etc.) be in colors as it's more flexible. (For people doing suits or jackets or whatever, same principle: make the jacket and slacks/skirt the neutral, make the shirt, blouse, shawl, tie, etc. the thing that has color.) Besides being flexible, it's a lot harder to get things wrong this way: a large mass of a bright color reads really wrong in some cultural settings - especially classic New England school ones.

Pink - or really any of the pastels - work really well for some people, but it can send a very young and naive message for others. (Pairing it with a dark neutral can help with that, as can your jewelry choices.)

If you are tight on money, picking the same neutral, or at least the same neutral family (black/gray, browns/beige, or navy and other blues) makes getting accessories easier. I use black or gray as my neutral always, which means I have multiple pairs of black shoes that will work. (And if I do end up at an interview where winter boots are appropriate, mine are black with a hint of blue, which matches my more interview-appropriate winter coat.) If you know of my love of blue, and wonder why I don't go for navy, it's because I often want to use a brighter blue than navy as my 'color', and matching that to navy is hard.

If you really want a brightly colored dress, a black/gray/other neutral shawl or jacket or loosely fitted jacket or whatever over it (and shoes/accessories in the same neutral) can make the brighter color 'read' more appropriately to more conservatively-clothing-minded people.

One final note is to think about what you're going to wear with the clothing. Will people see you with a winter coat on? What color is that? What color is your scarf?

Do you have a laptop bag or briefcase, or anything like that? What color is that? Brown leather is stunning, but it can look weird next to a very dark and pressed-edge black. My laptop bag is black and deep blue ballistic nylon: it would not do well with a very formal suit.

If you'd like to have multiple colors, a colored sweater/suit jacket/less fitted jacket in a color, a white or off-white shirt, and a dark neutral (black, gray, navy) skirt or pair of pants can look very tidy and appropriate, because the contrast between the white and dark helps draw the eye, and the vertical line of the sweater breaks it up (and draws attention up to your face, where you want it.)

Prints - or multiple shades of the same color (like multiple blues) are both quite tricky. First, the colors need to complement each other, or match pretty closely in terms of either tone or saturation. (Or both.) The rule I learned, back when, is that if you're going to do this, you *must* have a piece that ties them both together: for men, that might be a tie which echos the color of blazer and shirt, or blazer and slacks. For women, it might be a print shawl that includes both blues, or a pendant or necklace (something obvious near your face) that does. If you pick a print for something, pick one, and make sure your other solid clothing choices match exactly, in order to look really pulled together.

Cut
I vote for "What looks good on you", as long as you avoid certain sartorial problems outlined later in this entry. For me, that means that empire waist stuff with an interesting neckline is pretty much my Grail: it manages to flatter and be comfortable at the same time. (Both my current dresses manage this nicely.)

One thing to pay attention to is how it fits you. Especially for things like job interviews, paying attention to the tiny little details - the waist line hitting you in exactly the right place, the skirt being the right length, etc. can really help create the impression that you are thoughtful, put-together person who pays attention to details. Which, really, is never a bad thing in a job interview setting. Getting a skirt hemmed to the perfect length is not necessarily hugely expensive (do remember that it's easier to remove fabric than add it.) though it depends a lot on the material.

There are places where skirt length and pants hem length are very important indeed - educators generally aren't that precise. The very long and very short get noticed: the rest, it mostly matters more in terms of your general comfort level. (In general, I'd say that anywhere between mid-calf and about an inch above the knees is just fine. Longer or shorter, and you want to double check that it really works.)

The other thing that really makes a difference is the waistline. As someone who from the front is very hour-glass shaped (broad hips, broad shoulders, very defined waist coming in), I need to do either a perfectly placed belt/line across the waist, or need something that drops below the hips. Since the former is almost impossible to find (given that I'm also short and broad shouldered), I go for tunic-length sweaters/cardigans/etc. or a shawl that breaks up the visible line. Or, of course, an empire waist.

Shoes
Are complicated. I am very boring about shoes: I own a pair of plain black flats (the ones currently on my feet are Keen Golden Ballerinas to give you an idea.) I do not like heels, and so have no practice in wearing them. Interviews are a bad time to start.

I do recommend you break in your interview shoes in advance: my feet are currently ow, because I didn't do quite enough of that, and the top line of the shoe over my feet is not quite a flexible as it might be.

I honestly think that anyone looking in detail at my footwear (beyond "I'm wearing some" and "It is not totally inappropriate with the outfit") is probably not someone I want to work for (again, in an educational job setting), but that's me. Some teachers like heels, but plenty don't, so it's no big deal which most people wear.

Bogs of Sartorial Confusion:
There are, of course, topics that are more complicated.

Cleavage
I have it. However, I do not want to expose it in inappropriate ways - both because, hi, not good for job interviews, but also because it's not appropriate in a school/education setting. It is a good idea to test the views of your potential cleavage in advance - sitting back, sitting forward (as you do when listening to someone closely), standing, moving, carrying a laptop bag, whatever else it is you might at least potentially do. Shawls, decorative scarves, or an overlayer of some other kind (loosely fitting jacket/etc.) can be a great solution.

My gray dress has an absurdly wide neckline - it exposes far more skin than one should in an interview setting. Fortunately, this is easy to fix: add a shawl, or add a draping cardigan in a similar kind of fabric. (The cardigan's a bit easier to manage, and also obscures a line of curve that doesn't quite work with the bodice, but is less formal than the shawl.)

It should go without saying that your interviewer should not be able to see your bra. That means either an escaping strap, or seeing the line of the bra through a light-weight/light-colored shirt. Wear a camisole, or pick a different top.

Skirt length
Like cleavage, your skirt length should not reveal more than you intended. Be particularly attentive to slits and how high they go. Can you bend over to pick something up from the ground? Sit? (And do you sit in a way that's appropriate to short skirts, with your knees together or tightly crossed?)

I do not like fussing about these things, and I generally despise pantyhose (which I do wear to interviews, generally, though almost never otherwise.) so I wear skirts long enough I can wear knee highs. (Though this weekend taught me I really need a higher quality knee high so the things stay put.)

Jewelry
This one is tricky. Pearls are classic for women, so are gold necklaces with a simple elegant pendant.

Me, I have an excellent friend who is a jewelry maker, and a bunch of gorgeous but non-classic pieces. I wear the more traditionally-seeming of those instead, usually. (One of mine is red coral circles with smaller chunks and rounds of turquoise interspersed; I wear that with the black and white dress for the burst of color. With the gray dress, I wore a necklace made from small groups of blue opal chips, to bring out the blue from the cardigan or shawl. I have another necklace - "Prairie Light: Storm Light", for those who know it - that is larger and chunky, but might be really stunning with that gray dress and a blue silk shawl when worn as a double-looped choker). I therefore use my jewelry as a personal statement, adding to the overall impression of me as someone who respects the classic expectations, but who has a sense of individuality behind it.

Being a child of the technology age, I have gotten out of the habit of wearing a watch (since I always have a computer, an iPod, or a cell phone handy, really), and don't wear bracelets or rings. However, these things are fine, as long as they don't break the mood of the rest of your clothing.

Generally, you want to have the jewelry be in keeping with the formality level of the rest of your clothing. Simple bracelets, classic designs, or even artistic ones are often fine - and give a bit of personality hint - but rubber bangles, knotted friendship bracelets, etc, not so much. You want the focus to be on you, not on it.

I'll note here that as someone who periodically wears ritual jewelry for a long period of time (a month or more when it doesn't leave my body), I now always build in a clasp. If I am going to be wearing clothing that makes it inappropriate, I loop it through a bra strap and tuck it out of the way under my arm or in my cleavage. (I have noticed that anklets get noticed a whole lot less than bracelets, though, even when my ankle is clearly not covered by socks/skirt/etc.)

Piercings are complicated. I've seen a lot of advice to put in the simplest jewelry you can (or none at all if you can) in anything other than your ears. (In educational jobs, men with pierced ears are a lot more common these days, other than very conservative schools.) Again, basic maxim that you want the focus on you, not what you're wearing.

Hair
Also complicated. In general, loose makes you look younger (and sometimes substantially younger) if you're youngish (say, under 30), and can make you look 'desperately trying to keep hold of your youth' if you're older, or like me, going silver. Braids and ponytails are less formal (and also look young).

Good choices for looking mature and professional with long hair include buns, french twists, and anything else that helps focus the attention on your face. Hair jewelry should be understated, just like other jewelry, though if you go for fancier, it should precisely match the rest of what you're wearing. I had in a single hair stick made of aluminum (looks like silver until you're very up close, but is lighter weight) with a simple spiral end: went with the rest of the jewelry (which is silver strung), without attracting attention. A plain black or natural wood hair pin (depending on your other color choices and hair color) can also work well.

Experiment, if you haven't already, with how loosely/tightly to do that. I have a very round face in a lot of ways, and I found that pulling my hair back tightly makes me look very strained and severe. Loosening the bun a little, so there's some softness/puffiness around the upper half of my head (ear to crown to ear), and a few escaping wisps look a lot better on me.

Makeup
I normally don't wear it, and many of the teachers I know don't wear any, or very minimal amounts. However, for interviews, I want to use a few tricks to help direct attention where I want it (my eyes, in particular.) I also use a few tricks that help indicate overall health in many people's subconscious (skin issues, dark undereye circles, etc. are actually all signs of potential ill health.)

I therefore:
- apply concealer to any spots that need it, and to under my eyes (the latter to lighten the overall eye area)
- apply a light mineral foundation to even out color and surface
- apply blush so I look human (a bit on both cheeks, and a light dash across chin and forehead)
- apply a light neutral eyeshadow to the top arch of my eyebrow down to the top lashes, and smooth in so you just see the lightness. (I keep the line of my eyebrows tidy by preference, and this helps draw the focus to just below that arch.)
- apply mascara in a neutral and natural color (I've got dark brown hair and lashes, and my mascara is brown-black), focusing on the outer edges of the upper lashes. This gives the illusion that the whites of the eyes 'pop' out more, and draws attention back to your eyes.
- I do either lip salve or a very neutral lipstick as close to my natural lip color as I can get: my style is not such that I can manage bright lipstick well, and I feel very self-conscious with it.

This amount of makeup basically says "Hi, I care enough about this to go to several extra steps, but I'm also being realistic here." (And you can see how I reverse engineered regular makeup from learning it for stage makeup, I suspect.) Do check makeup under the same lighting you'll be under: fluorescents and their modern cousins are different than daylight.

I don't put nailpolish on my fingers or anything particularly unusual, but I do make sure my nails are trimmed, I don't have any hangnail snags (partly because I don't want to snag nylons), and if I have time, I'll buff my nails to remove any obvious ridges/scratches/etc. (another "I am healthy" sign.)

Do your choices present the best possible you?
Overall - do your choices present you, but in your best possible light? Will you be comfortable and move naturally while wearing it? Are you giving off the vibes that you'd be a great fit for the job you're going for? And in the workplace it's in?

In general, getting most of the clothing choices right for that setting, but having a few off is not a big problem, as long as you're being attentive to the details and repair issues. Being conservative and choosing something simple and classic (adapted for your shape/size) is usually a safe bet: no one can really *argue* with a simple but well-designed dress and a suitable shawl/loosely tailored jacket/blazer unless they're way up the formality scale. Same thing for the colored blazer/white or cream top/dark neutral bottom.

Comments

[kakiphony]

At first, I was resistant to the summer uniform I'm going to have to start wearing for my new job. (Navy pants or skirt plus a powder blue collared shirt. Cardigans can be any conservative color (grey, navy, white) or red. Socks or stockings must always be worn. I'm still not thrilled by the socks/stockings bit in humid Michigan summers, but pricing the other components made me quite happy. It's easy and can all be picked up at LL Bean for relatively cheap!

In the winter I tend to wear a lot of less constructed blazers -- boiled wool jackets with mandarin collars and the like. They're a good compromise between professional in any setting yet not too suit-formal. I also have some casual suits with less constructed shoulders, no collars, interesting closures (zippers, toggeles etc), cotton material etc.

I think my one jarring note right now is my hair. It's long and I just tend to wear it down and brushed, sort of Alice style. I could use a more grown-up style, but because of the texture and thickness of my hair, it doesn't style easily.

[hobbitbabe]

Also, legwear. This is something that has changed a great deal over the time of my career-to-date, and still probably has regional variation. Whether it's tidy kneesocks, ribbed opaque tights, hose, bare shaved legs, or bare not-shaved legs is part of the presentation and something skirt-wearers need to think about. I consistently interviewed and taught in heels and hose around the turn of the century, because anything else would have conveyed a "not-formal-enough" or "too young" message to old engineers. But as you say, having white in my hair means that I can choose to look approachable and active, and still be taken seriously.

I really like your mindful analysis of choices. I bet if you ever had to advise students preparing for interviews, you'd be able to sell it to them as costume and message even though they'd be resenting the same concepts presented as Rules.

[jenett]

Yes, on the legwear, which I touched on, but didn't go into.

I started wearing skirts all the time because I was 23 when I started working with high school students, some of whom were not that much younger than I was. (These days, I do it because I like them, and it's much easier to find ones that fit better and look professional than to do the equivalent with pants.)

For interviews, I tend towards long enough skirts I can get away with knee-high stockings, as I said, but there are times I jettison them and go bare-legged. (My shaving rotation is normally 'before full moons/Sabbats' or roughly every two weeks but I'm not opposed to doing it before an interview too.)

[axelrod]

Ended up skimming a lot of this, so possibly you mention this at some point. But what about people intentionally aiming for some form of androgyny? You say that one thing you want to communicate is "I am aware of community cultures and customs." And, well, one of those customs is the whole binary gender thing. I'm aware enough of how at certain cultures construct appearances for the two commonly recognized genders to manipulate clothing options available to me to create the neutral-to-androgynous look I usually go for. The thing is, the more formal you get, the more your clothing requires you to declare your gender one way or another *or* to make a declaration of not adhering to those norms.

An interview outfit for me would be something like narrow, somewhat tapered trousers (black or grey makes the rest easier), black or brown oxford-style shoes in a masculine style (depending on the rest of the outfit), a button-down collared shirt with as few feminine attributes as possible (i.e. feminine tailoring, girly colors, not having enough buttons to button it all the way up, etc.) and a slim-cut one-button dark-grey blazer from J. Crew. I don't have it down perfectly, by any means, but I also haven't done any serious job interviewing ever. I do know that I look too much like a preppy, conservatively dressed boy if I wear a button down collared shirt under a sweater, though, and I don't want to look like I'm attending a boys' prep school or something. I'd just wear men's clothes if they fit and if some looks didn't just make me look like a kid - I look young for my age, and my androgynous look doesn't exactly age me up.

Most likely everything would be cut for women, because I have a slight build and men's XS rarely fits me. Boy's clothing is an option, though I have yet to find a brand that works for me - sizing can range from way too small to too baggy, in my experience.

I don't wear any jewelry currently. I want to get my ears pierced. That will make my androgyny even more challenging to balance, when I need to be semi-formal.

Dressing in a more feminine way isn't an option: I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable and it's not like I'd be ok with wearing drag everyday to a job anyway.

[jenett]

I didn't speak as directly to androgyny, largely because it's not the perspective I'm used to coming from, so I can't speak from experience, if that makes sense. That said, I tried to point out the stuff that matters most: figure out what message you want to send, figure out what clothes will do that (and what clothes *won't* do that) and adjust until you're satisfied.

I think what you suggest here - narrow trousers, white shirt buttoned up, one-button blazer would have been totally appropriate for this particular setting.

The other thing that springs to mind would be getting a vest made to your specifications and cut (it's not a lot of fabric, and it's not actually incredibly complicated sewing for an experienced tailor/seamstress, so it might not even be more expensive than getting something from a store.) It's the kind of thing where precisely the right fit might both pull everything together, and convey the right amount of age/experience you want than you'd think at first glance.

(It'd be a little unusual, but not in a bad way, I think - I saw a few guys wearing vests, or suspenders, or similar things, which are about as out there: as long as the outfit was put together well, it looked great.)w

The major issues that I saw at the conference were problems that have very little to do with gender presentation - there were people wearing blazers with untucked shirts, or people wearing colors that just didn't work together (dark blue blazer, salmon-beigy top, khaki pants, pink shoes, for example) and the top and khakis just didn't work together at all - and pink shoes are one of those things that have to be dead on if they're going to work in that setting.

Or that were just inappropriately cut/styled (capri-ish length pants, 3/4 sleeve arms, wedge shoes.)

I still think that - in academic settings and their close cousins - that basic classic (which includes the blazer/button down shirt/tailored slacks) can't go wrong.

[alphaviolet]

I do intentionally aim for androgyny at interviews, now that I am applying to places where that's accepted.

Neutrals, classy accessories, and wearing black are *much* more common on the East Coast than they were where I used to live.

I adapted the ideas from this book: http://www.amazon.com/Casual-Power-Nonverbal-Communication-Success/dp/1880092484
The changes I made were: wearing no makeup (or occasionally neutral colors); wearing flat shoes; carrying a briefcase instead of a purse; and buying suits and shirts that are androgynous but are also women's sizes.

I also recommend: http://nouveaubutch.wordpress.com/category/tools-of-the-trade/
I like their watch recommendations. I wouldn't wear a tie to an interview, personally.... but YMMV.

[firecat]

One thing I didn't see in your write-up was the possibility of custom-tailored clothing. You mention alterations, but some retailers will custom-cut your clothing up front for no extra charge. This really helps increase options when you're not an off-the-rack shape. The fatshionista community on LiveJournal has good information about such places. They're usually not the cheapest, but they're not all that expensive either (I get my custom-cut pants for around $50 at three different retailers).

[dagoski.livejournal.com]

This is why I just show up as I look in my user icon. It says everything that needs to be said about me.

[thesecondcircle.livejournal.com]

You're hired!

[jinian.livejournal.com]

I've been getting a lot of good ideas for being adventurous and building in personal style from Academichic lately. None of the bloggers there wear exactly what I would, and I disagree vehemently with some of it, but there are a lot of good ideas.

[brock-tn.livejournal.com]

Were I looking for work in that area, I would likely be wearing button-down shirt and tie, khaki trousers, and a Harris tweed jacket: i.e., a slightly gussied up version of what I'm wearing in the icon.

But have danced the "guess how to dress for an interview" dance too many times at this point, I suppose.

[magentamn.livejournal.com]

Wow! If you don't get a job as a librarian, have you considering going into clothing consulting? There used to be someone at Dayton's, back when there was Dayton's, who would advise people on choosing clothing, and I used several times. I usually ended up buying high end pieces of clothing, but they were ones that really worked well, much better than what I chose for myself. Don't think they have them at Macy's. Or anywhere else I know of, for that matter.

[magentamn.livejournal.com]

You could think of it as reference work for clothing.

[jenett]

Hee. The thing that's funny about it, of course, is that I don't actually care about clothing all that much, and am extremely boring about most of mine. I just got the "Here's what this particular clothing stuff is attempting to say" from costuming at a very early age.

(If I don't get a librarian job, Elise thinks I should start a business being an external brain for medical appointments and related materials. I'll add this to the list.)

Bloomindale's still has very helpful staff: not a personal shopper, but the lovely woman who's helped me find both the interview dresses I currently have was clearly doing that kind of work. (And was fabulous at it.)

[brock-tn.livejournal.com]

And isn't Deva's stuff nice? I wear their heavyweight drawstring pants with gusset a lot for SCA field garb. And the Frontier Shirt, come to think of it.

[jenett]

I adore Deva's stuff. I particularly adore the nice sturdy pockets in their skirts, which are not a thing that many other skirts reliably have. They wear well, too, and they're incredibly easy to take care of.

(My only problem with them is due to height: the heavier weight cloth I'd prefer comes in skirt lengths longer than ideal for me - the 32" comes to low-calf on me. I keep wishing they offered a 30", but it means either living with it - which I usually do - or getting them hemmed up.)

[baratron.livejournal.com]

This strikes me as a potentially useful post for people-in-general - would you feel comfortable sharing it on one of your public blogs?

[jenett]

It's actually public on the Dreamwidth side (I trust their spam measures a little more right now.) Thanks for reminding me, because I meant to note that and forgot to.

http://jenett.dreamwidth.org/1343100.html for easy access :)